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The previous thread outgrew itself, but folks may continue the discussion in this thread. 
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Everyone always overgeneralizes everything entirely too much.
~TSL )O(
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I had a similar thought to Ajax. Here, I've matched the 'curved' script with 'non-curved' runes:
http://morrowind.ttlg.com/coolstuff/runes2.jpg
I have placed these in the excel file, however, I also couldn't see anything that I could make into words easily. Even so, I do believe that it is on the right track. What does everyone else think?
-Striker
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I used the same meathod with a similar set of matches and came out with nothing I could understand. I suppose it could be in a different language like "N'Gasta! Kvata! Kvakis!" or ciphered but I doubt it as it is extremely difficult as it is to derive meaning from what we have.
Hmmm... mumbled or perhaps spoken erringly (similar to the Hanging Gardens perhaps?) with a thick accent. That could be something there but it seems rather indefinite, although it has happened several times in our history.
I like the last theory (one glyph represents a phoneme) the best. The problem with this is that it is very complicated. We don't know if we're right as we don't know what dwemer words mean ( thus we cannot determine if our translation makes sense). We have to record all the different phonemes. We have to determine if there are any rules to combining phonemes (if there are we have to determine them). And then do whatever else to get a complete translation. Could be fun, where do we begin? 
On a side note I can't find this or this or this image in the Academy. Perhaps, since they have no known glyph counterpart, the academy has more examples of Dwemer script than it thinks it does. Only one character on the large centurian parts might be know, but as it is oreinted on the head (which I think is the correct way of reading it as its maker would face it and read right to left) it is completely new. I think the shoulder markings are a reflection of the forehead. My guess is that it is someone's initals, a number, or maybe even the word "up." If it is indeed "up" then at least p probably matches x17 and u is probably x22. The second letter in the first picture I mentioned looks to be the similar if not the same as the "u" character. The first character in the first image looks like a x10 character in which case it might a f, this makes me question attempts ar further translation due to the apparent "lore" of certain other script examples. Just a joke. It is just as well anyways as I have no idea what the last two characters of that arched righting could mean or what glyph characters they "match" if any of that is the way it works at all.
Upon further inspection, if one looks at the main body of the arched writing one can perhaps see "F" "I" "U" and then the last is unknown.
Anyways I'd like further exploration of these pictures if possible (You don't have any reasons for not including these images do you?).
On a side, side note in this image, the enlarged area appears to contain dwemer script. I think I can make out a "a" or "e" and "f" in the second half of the enlargement. That is if it isn't out of date or just ornemental (maybe the artist just added them without knowing what they were?).
edit- Should we repost Wormgod's and Lord Fyr's posts for ease of use?
Do you guys think that the academy has found what Wormgod was trying to get us to find? The script...
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"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
Edited by Solin (11/25/03 01:57 AM)
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Quote:
Anyways I'd like further exploration of these pictures if possible (You don't have any reasons for not including these images do you?).
The reason I did not include them is because:-
The arched writing example appears to be just a decorative effect rather than lettering, this is what I decided because I couldn't identify it with either set - although that may just be my incorrect judgement.
The golem example, which is mirrored on the shoulder, is actually the initials "GT" for you know who  , and not an example of Dwemeris script (I did ask). Apparently, it should be interpreted as some kind of 'warning' symbol like a radiation hazard (and not as an artist's sig. ).
I think that it is quite reasonable to try to compare the glyph and script runes and see which may relate to which, although I haven't been able to see where that might lead either.
The runes on the Dwemer robes are interesting. (I might take a closer look at the spectre's robes in the editor  ).
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Pity, I thought I might have found another two script letters but I mentioned the intials for a reason. Do you know if those are the only two examples of script in exsistance (as in confirmed)? Keep me from going off on useless tangents if you did know.
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"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
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I don’t know where my next question is coming from because I haven’t paid as much attention to this research as I should have: Is it possible that the scripts do match with the glyphs, but the message needs to be decoded? For example, convert the glyphs into letters and try running it through a Vigenere decipher program using various keys. Any luck? Or are there more glyphs than scripts? Forgive me for not paying better attention to your research. 
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Yeah, that's my belief as well, that each rune corresponds to a letter and then the books are encoded somehow. Didn't consider a Vigenere method, though; was looking only at ways they could be scrambled (put the letters in a different order: meat -> tmae).
Best chance to decode the language, though, is to try to figure out what the random individual words are, like Nigedo said, cause they're probably not encoded in any way. The books probably are.
At least we have a large number of runes figured out.
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Hey, is there an actual font set for the language, or would I have to make my own? I'm in the middle of making a mod, and I want to make sure that all of the text and inscriptions are accurate to the language.
...
I'm sorry that I just broke the incredibly deep discussion. 
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It's better to burn out
Than to fade away...
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Also_Da_Man check out http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1988764&page=6&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
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Quote:
Hey, is there an actual font set for the language..?
You can download a font from this page.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Quote:
Do you know if those are the only two examples of script in exsistance (as in confirmed)?
This is the dialogue of my discussion with WormGod for the benefit of the forum;
Nigedo:
[Explained findings on two known examples of Script.]
We have also noted our studies that, although there are many good examples of the style of Dwemeris Glyphs found within the infamous 'Egg Of Time', there are relatively few extant examples of this apparently unrelated form of Dwemeris Script.
We have come across one more example, however, which features two characters separated by the same style of 'period mark' exhibited within the near universal pipe markings. This sample can be observed upon some rare pieces of a dismantled golem collected by the Academy and my research indicates that they may represent the Tamrielic letters "GT".
GT:
Well, who am I to tell a man he is wrong, when he is 100% correct.
Tell me, have you figured out all of the letters?
Nigedo:
If indeed there are more letters then no, we have not discovered the meaning of these.
Would you please direct us to where we may find more examples of this script since we presently have sufficient to represent only half of the Tamrielic alphabet?
GT:
Good job on your part, You are very close to solving it all.
Nigedo:
You say that we are close to 'solving it all', but I feel lost.
There appears to be no relation between the letters you used on your Dad's memorial and the letters that appear in Egg Of Time or on the Golem schematics. Are they related?
GT:
Quite simply, and not exactly done purposely, many symbols and things you will see on Dwemer objects are NOT necessarily letters or numbers.
They could be things such as we see everyday, like a radiation symbol or a flammable symbol. We didnt want to try to explain ingame how some symbols may NOT be letters or numbers because the dwemer were NOT the main topic in the game.
Hopefully, one day, they will be though.
So, be careful with some symbols you see. They could throw you off since they are not what you may think they are.
Nigedo:
Thanks very much for that, but are the letters in Egg Of Time actual letters like your memorial?
GT:
Haha, well, I cant recall the Egg of Time off the top of my head. If these letters appear the same, then they would be the scripting.
I couldnt tell you if they actually mean anything in the book though since I dont recall it.
Nigedo:
Thanks Gary, you've been really helpful.
This does kind of bring me back to my original question though -Aquiantus and I now have fourteen Dwemeri letters from your Memorial and your pipe signature, where on Nirn do we find the rest?
GT:
It is highly unlikely that you will find ALL of the letters in the world. I am the only one here who ever used them in any way and the only places I used them were on the memorial and the pipework.
Nigedo:
Thanks very much indeed. That is very helpful confirmation.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Very very interesting, all of it. Especially that some of the symbols may not be letters or numbers, and that there's confirmation that Egg of Time (at least) is completely translatable.
And very very well-done, Aquiantus and Nigedo. I admit that I was hoping more for a breakthrough in the glyphs used in Egg of Time and Divine Metaphysics, but any progress in anything Dwemeri is highly commendable (but secretly I was hoping the breakthrough wasn't in EoT or DM, so the second-biggest mystery was still unsolved). I would give you trophies but I think you have enough of those already, have some books instead.  I think you will find them more useful.
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Hey, thanks Nigedo. That really helps. And thanks for not giving me crap for bursting into the thread.
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It's better to burn out
Than to fade away...
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Just thought I'd update this thread with some news about the work being undertaken by the French 'Judghype' team.
They have successfully broken the codes used to cipher game letters between Master Aryon and Divayth Fyr (House Telvanni quest) and have turned their attention to the EoT and DM texts.
If you can read French well, you can follow their progress or join in on the Wiwiland forum.
After pursuing most of the routes we have discussed on this forum, the most interesting recent proposal IMO is that Dwemeris may be written in a form that does not employ vowels, and where each rune may represent a single phoneme or syllabic sound (apparently similar to Sanskrit ).
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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A great thread... Too bad the babelfish translator doesn't work well, anyone knows another good translator?
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~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
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Agreed and seconded, Xanathar. A good translation program/system would be nice.
I was beginning to worry that Baladas was telling us the truth from the very beginning (Still might though).
I tried overlaying the various pages. All that I noticed is that on the first pages of the Egg of Time and Divine Metaphysics contain a block of text that is in the exact same position, otherwise nothing obvious.
Now this form that does not employ vowels sounds very interesting, but has there been any suggestion on how to associate the different runes with varying phenomes? We could test theory with the various dwemer places/object names we do know. What language would that translate into though... might not be english.
Just throwing out some thoughts...
Perhaps if we better understood how the Dwemer talked to each other we could get a better idea on how to translate their writing. Supposedly they had the ability to communicate over long distances quickly with something called the "Calling." What might this be? Telepathy? a technological advancement like radio? Perhaps they used something like morse code and it's reflected in their characters.
I have not been a follower of previous elderscrolls games so forgive please my ignorance, but who were the developers who first worked on Dwemer writings? What do we know about them? Not to pry but it could be useful in trying to think like they were.
Anyways, it's good to see work on this continues. Even if it doesn't have any lore specific data it will still be interesting.
Oh and on a side note, it's been awhile, but I think the Dwemer warning sign mentioned previously is rather prominent on the Dwemer axe. I'm suprised I hadn't noticed at the time.
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"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
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Quote:
I have not been a follower of previous elderscrolls games so forgive please my ignorance, but who were the developers who first worked on Dwemer writings? What do we know about them?
The Dwemer issue as well as the word "dwemer" was introduced in TESA:Redguard. As far as I remember the designers of the game is Michael Kirkbride, Kurt Kuhlmann, Ken Rolston. But I think the dwemer thing was the result of the insanity of Michael Kirkbride. Before TESA:Redguard, there is no dwemer, the race was known as dwarf instead. Michael Kirkbride, sadly, is not Bethboys anymore. He daparted several months before MW gone gold. He sometime visited this forum. Last time he assumed the role of Vehk (Vivec). Perhaps he would come here and bring some light on this issue... yeah perhaps.
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~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
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So, Nigedo has asked me to help out with this effort by producing a Dwemeri font with cleaner outlines then the one for download on his site. I had tackled this same translation problem last spring (and got nowhere) so I had some materials for this ready.
I'm starting with "Dwemeris - Book" which will be outlines based on the letters in the two Dwemer texts in Morrowind. I've sent a beta off to Nigedo, but haven't heard back yet. I have a second improved version ready, unless objections crop up I'm ready to call it final. (Are you around to have a look Nigedo?)
For now the glyph order follows the chart on Nigedo's site. When/if any progress happens WRT decoding this language I can easily change the order.
I've taken the game textures to trace the vectors from. I evened up all the stroke weights, with the exception of X20, X21, & X27. I also evened up the height of all the runes. My thinking here is the I don't know how much of the shape in the game texture comes from compression distortion, hinting errors (if it was generated with a font) and how much it is edited to look like it was printed on an antique letterpress. I want a representation of the actual letter's shape, not the quirks of these particular book's history. The texture artist can then distress them to taste.
Anyhoo, here's some samples:
Sample of Dongle's New Font
Sample of Nigedo's Old Font
You can see here how I've made my font monospaced, so each rune lines up with the ones above and below.
Game Books vs Dongle's Font
The game textures on the left, and my font on the right. This would end up a mess if it were proportionally spaced, ie each letter a different width.
Game Book Alphabet vs Dongle's Font
This shows how I've evened up the glyph heights & widths, books on top (enlarged 2x) my font on the bottom.
Reskinned Banner Test
Jus' messin' 'round.
Comments?
I'll have a "Dwemeris - Script" later. . . .
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Wow, the master of daedric alphabet is here! Heya Dongle! Love seeing you here!
Edit: As always, your work is great. The dwemeri alphabet/rune is sharp... it's better, even better then Beth's, IMHO.
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~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Edited by Xanathar (02/04/04 03:57 AM)
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Dongle, I want your banners mate. 
The font looks great. It's easy to see how much you've cleaned up the books' style of glyphs. (Sorry I didn't check my mail over the w/e btw).
If you're happy with it, I would say go with that. 
Looking forward to "Dwemeris - Script".
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Hi Xan! Nice seeing you around too.
Nigedo, OK I'll .zip it up and send it over. Don't use the font I sent last Thursday. That didn't have the monospaced feature, I just realized I needed to do it that way when I did the book vs font sample tonight.
Script will be harder to do, but fewer letters, so it shouldn't be long. . . .
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Thanks Dongle. Can't wait to test it out.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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I loved it and that Banner it was really great!
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Alchemy Machine Mod in Artuzu - screen shots
Dwemer Links
Prof. of Academy for Dwemer Studies
Member of Team Pheonix
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Quote:
Michael Kirkbride, sadly, is not Bethboys anymore. He daparted several months before MW gone gold.
Really? Heh, try a couple of years.
MK was quite the mastermind behind the visual appeal of Morrowind. We followed in his steps upon his departure to try to maintain the look and feel of the world he envisioned.
Last I talked to MK was soon after MW shipped. He called here to ask a few questions about it. I am unsure if anyne here stays in contact with him anymore. It could be that he finally found his new home on the west coast to be just enough to leave us old school farts behind, and move on to new horizons. THAT'S RIGHT MK! BRING ON THE COMPETITION FROM OUT WEST!
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gary noonan
animator guy
bethesda softworks
"too weird to live, too rare to die...."
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How about Kurt Kuhlmann, as I recall he is the creator of dreaded dwemer beetle puzzle?
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~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
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One little question please : i saw that : http://dwemer.whirlingschool.net/images/RunePic20.jpg
It seems to be a "normal" alphabet dwemer but if it is , that would mean that vowels are present ^^
I am working with this picture buti am not sure that it is dwemer transcription ( not translation ^^ ).
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Nigedo or Aquiantus can probably tell you for sure, but I think that the text at the bottom is just the pronunciation of the words that are being spoken, as interpreted by Aquiantus.
If that's what you were talking about.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention. - Tom Peters
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The pic is an unaltered screenshot directly from 'Redguard' and the text at the bottom is the pronunciation of the runes on the door as offered in-game.
Cyrus the Redguard was using Favoril's Dwarven Lore as a guide to pronouncing the runes, in order to magically unseal the door.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Hey guys, I just asked this in another thread, but it appears to me that there are dwemer runes on the edge of a bonelords hood. Are they dwemer? Anyone know what they say?
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The bone lord is the one wich looks like a skelleton but with a dress and no weapon?
If it is , i saw it yesterday but it's dradric runes, not dwemer
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Bonelords are the things in tombs with 4 arms.
Anyone else look at that texture? I would, but I don't know how to get to it. I have just looked at the pictures on the loading screen with the bonelord on it. I could have sworn the runes were not Daedric. I thought they looked similar to the runes on dwemer steam pipes.
Then again there does seem to be a "font" of daedric used on the Index teleportation things that does make the daedric look more like dwemer. Still, if it is daedric on the bonelord, it should be easy to translate then.
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It is written UOS on the belt of the bonelord , but i dont know what that would mean Oo
Ho i tried to see whats written on the dwarven specter , there are dwemer signs, but the specter is too "transparent?" ( dont know the english word ) to see anything :/
If someone can open his mesh with photoshop or something else he would find some signs =)
Edited by JoeJinis (02/05/04 09:03 PM)
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I tried that, but the runes aren't detailed enough to be easily read.
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Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
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Me too. They're very unclear.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
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Quote:
Then again there does seem to be a "font" of daedric used on the Index teleportation things
That's an example of a different style of Daedric letters. I have a True Type font of it I call Oblivion Script:
http://www.deffeyes.com/morrowind/fonts.html
http://www.deffeyes.com/morrowind/shots/Font-03.gif
It is not at all related to the Dwemer runes, nor is it anything similar to the bonelord hood. It is the same alphabet as regular Daedric, just a more hand-written look.
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Dongle, that is exactly what I was saying. I said it was daedric lettering on the Index items. I said it looked "similar" to dwemer runes.
I have looked at the runes on the edge of the Bonelord hood again. I am positive they are not daedric. I "guessed" they were dwemer. I didn't know there were other runes used in the game.
Can anyone post a link to a pic of the texture? Or maybe a screenshot of a bonelord?
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It is EXACTLY dradric , some start to be boring T_T
http://til.gamingsource.co.uk/daedric/alphabets.gif
Its exactly the same runes so ~~
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Joe, I think you are confused. The runes on the BELT (the thing around the bonelord's waist) are daedric.
I was talking about the runes on the HOOD (the thing around his head). Particularly the ones on the bonelords left side shown on the loading screen. I have looked at them a few times now. I can't match any of them to a rune on the daedric sets. If they are EXACTLY daedric and I am mistaken, please translate them and tell us what they say.
I have another thread started about the runes on the bonelord BELT. I am just looking for more clues as to what the UOS on the belt actually stands for. That led to examining the runes on the HOOD. The best guesses so far are that the UOS stands for a spell that is keeping the bonelord in a tomb.
The other, and probably best guess so far, is that the UOS stands for Under Oaths Sworn. But, I found the logic used to get to that was a little flawed. The poster (sorry I forgot your name, starts with a V) refered to an in game book that mentions some things about dunmer and thier tombs. IMHO the things mentioned refer to the dunmer coming to visit the shrine and not the guardians of the shrine, but that is just me.
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TSBasilisk
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Darn! I tripped in the dark, and now my head's got a *BUMP*!
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Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft
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Quote:
Darn! I tripped in the dark
OW! Watch where yer going in here, that hurt!
It reminds me tho, fonts!
Just sent a beta of my script-style Dwemer font off to ole Nige' for evaluation. Look for a release shortly. Here's a sample:
Dwemeris - Script, Sample
Also check out what I found in Arkngthand . . . could this be a competing metal-works to the one we're so familiar with?
Mysterious Pipe #1
Mysterious Pipe #2
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That bad eh?
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Not at all. I like what you have done, but I was under the impression the "N" character was a bit smoother as possibly the "V." I'm not quite sure but some characters look out of place to me, but the majority, I feel, are good.
I would post more on the runes but I find my thoughts have been spinning in the dark as of late and fear tripping into something as poor TSBasilisk has done.
Also of late I have been laughing at the dance in the neighboring courtroom.
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"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot
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The "N" in Nigedo's font is certainly more rounded, I'm not sure where that comes from. I'm going off a sort of blueprint graphic Wormgod kindly provided. Is it OK to post that Nige?
The Dwemer door is the only place the "N" and "V" appear in Vvardenfell:
www.deffeyes.com/morrowind/images/loving.jpg
(4x magnification)
The "N" is certainly squared off here, there are four total on the door, as it is in the blueprint. Unfortunately there is -not- a "V" on the blueprint, and the only one on the door is the first circled letter. Not much to go on really, but I did my best. . . .
That is a fun thread next door. I'm not skilled enough to join in, but interesting reading! Maybe I can model a prison, depending on the outcome? 
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Ahh, that magnification is much better then anything I had so I can see it now. That "V" is tricky being the only one around and having that imperfect right next to it as well. Maybe the right leg could be readjusted so it curved inward instead of outward but it is hard to tell either way.
I am very much enjoying that thread myself. I cannot grasp the entirety of it, but I'll probably pop in here and there when I'm not hiding in the shadows. If I may be so bold in my interpretation of Vehk's words, I believe he has already suggested a Ghost Fence of sorts for a prison. Of course, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Vehk to loose.
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"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot
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Quote:
Also check out what I found in Arkngthand . . . could this be a competing metal-works to the one we're so familiar with?
Hehe.. very cool.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Quote:
I'm going off a sort of blueprint graphic Wormgod kindly provided. Is it OK to post that Nige?
Sure.
My attempt was based more on the available IC versions and more poor skills and software. The blueprint is useful, but it doesn't represent the style of the letters as they appear in-game.
But I think that your beta is very good, Dongle. Certainly better for mod work than mine.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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